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  #51  
Old 08-23-2013, 05:27 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

The side beams are not as strong as you may think. This chassis is similar to the 97-01 Prelude. I forsee no issues. The cross beams always been in the way and we have never used them in previous cars. We have never had an issue from doing this.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:36 PM
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Arrow Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

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Old 08-23-2013, 08:37 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

Originally Posted by ESP.net View Post
The side beams are not as strong as you may think. This chassis is similar to the 97-01 Prelude. I forsee no issues. The cross beams always been in the way and we have never used them in previous cars. We have never had an issue from doing this.
Have you ever checked the torsional rigidity of the chassis? Foresight and testing is completely different.

The reason I'm being so anal about this is I've spent a good deal of time designing chassis for competition.

Triangles are key. There are 2 triangles formed in the front chassis section, as viewed from the side. One is the upper frame rail / Firewall / and a short reinforcement section. The radiator support / the short reinforcement section / and the lower braces you advise removing. Vertical loads into the suspension are transferred into the frame rail, which are then transferred into tension loads in the lower braces. Removing the braces means all vertical suspension loads are now bending loads on the upper frame rail and then firewall.

These loads are pretty ****ing extreme. Imagine a speed bump at 20mph, the suspension is compressed about 3", on a 350lb/in spring. That's in addition to the 800 or so lbs already on the wheel, so your looking at about 2000lbs of force into the upper frame rail, about 1.5' from the firewall, so something like 3000lb/ft of bending torque is going into the base of the A-pillar/firewall/frame rail area. With the lower braces installed, a portion of that would be transferred into a tension load in the lower brace, into the subframe, and into the floor beams of the car.

I'm not even going to get into the lateral loads that those braces are supporting.

OK no pics, Ubuntu doesn't come with editing software. Doesn't matter much anyway, I'll have measurements tomorrow.
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  #54  
Old 08-23-2013, 09:31 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

You are presenting a bunch of psuedoscience here to support your claim. I was debating responding to your posts......but i think it would fall upon deaf ears. I will be posting a review of the traction bars after I autocross the accord in a week or two.

Cheers.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:24 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

So I completed my torsional deflection test a few minutes ago, the results were very surprising. I expected to find a modest (30-40%) increase in deflection, what I found was much higher.

First to explain the procedure. I jacked the rear of the car and supported it on the subframe to eliminate rear suspension movement influence on the measurements. I then jacked the front of the car by the left front corner and measured the height at the same location on both sides. I then loosened the bolts that attach the longitudinal members to the rear subframe, and remeasured. I then lowered the car, retightened the bolts, and repeated the procedure, but lifting the right side.

Left lifted, with bars:
Left :405mm
Right: 403.5mm

Left lifted without bars:
Left: 405mm
Right: 401.5mm

An increase in deflection of 2mm, or a 230% increase.

Right lifted with bars:
Right: 405mm
Left: 404mm

Right lifted without bars:
Right: 405mm
Left: 402.5

An increase of 1.5mm, or 150%.

All this with basic tools. Didn't even bring home my snap-on.



So tell me, DID you do any testing, or just weld something that fits and call it a day?


[edit: faulty maths]
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:46 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

I just thought I should add, you could literally watch the parts pull apart as the bolts were loosened.

And that this was all at 1G loading. Loads while driving will be 2-3x higher, or more, with shock loads (hit the bump stops) exponentially higher.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:37 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

I am actually surprised that you went ahead and "tested" this. Unfortunately.....what you "proved" is that in stock form, unbolting the k-frame connectors "lowers" structural rigidity. This is far from the scientific method, and quite honestly, while an interesting experiment, how can you honestly and without bias compare design A to design B with actually using design B? If you ran the same test with the ESP traction bars and the stock bars your examination would have more weight. In addition, what are the results for the various trials? What was the standard deviation in your results? What measuring equipment did you use? How did you ensure accurate measurements? If you used a tape measure to determine the 2-3mm increase in frame torsional deflection, I will laugh so hard.....you'll hear me from the west coast. Also I like your use of statistics to frighten people . 230% sounds mighty scary when you present data like that. For those interested....some funny quotes on statistics: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/ke...tatistics.html

I'll tell you the same thing I told you yesterday: You are presenting a bunch of psuedoscience here to support your claim.

For a second, I will entertain your hypothesis (for the sake of the following argument). Engineering is a matter of tradeoffs. You will not find 1 solution to fit all of your operating parameters under most circumstances. The fact that these traction bars provide solid bearings, which are not available in stock form for me, and many others may be a valid tradeoff for the decreased chassis rigidity. I can tell you for a fact that the accord suspension in stock form is not meant to handle a lot of power. During drag racing and autocross I have on many occasions found myself in a situation where the amount of wheel hop present was enough to make me abort the run essentially, because the wheel hop was unmanageable. For me right now, given my operating parameters, these traction bars will be of more utility to me than the stock piece with the extra (once again entertaining your hypothesis) torsional rigidity.

EDIT: For Ubuntu just "sudo apt-get install gimp" from the terminal. Gimp is a GNU image editor. Pretty much like PS...just free.
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Old 08-24-2013, 08:57 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

Please explain like I'm 5
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:14 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

I used an engineering rule & a plumb bob, and if you don't like it you can go do it your way. The 'fabricator' has yet to chime in with any of his measurements. What I have proven is that there is a measurable decrease in chassis stiffness, which the fabricator said would not happen.

There are always trade offs, yes. However eliminating a major structural portion of the chassis, and reducing chassis stiffness, to decrease suspension compliance could hardly be considered a trade off. More of a hack job. A properly designed traction bar system would not decrease chassis stiffness, because it would be designed to accommodate or replace the longitudinal members with some of equal or greater strength. Notice that he relocated the mounting point for wheel clearance, Honda had no problem with wheel clearance. The relocated mounting point would not allow the use of the structural members. That's 2 poor solutions to problems that did not exist.

Wheel hop may be an issue, for that I would advise redesigning the traction bar system. I could do it. Hell, I could do it in my one car (actually four bike) garage. I won't be doing it for free, though. I already did half his R&D for free. That was just because I'm concerned about the 6GA community members, and I'm plain tired of false claims by vendors.

As for linux, I've been running various forms for over 15 years. I'm fully aware of how to get gimp, however I can not install it at this time. I recently 'upgraded' to 13.04 and my root partition is too small. I should have re-partitioned and done a clean install. Really, I should not have updated at all, I'll be going back to 10.04 soon.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:16 PM
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Re: ESP.net 98-02 Accord Traction Bar System with Front Torque Mount Kit F/H 4 cyl Mo

Originally Posted by chaby_91 View Post
Please explain like I'm 5

ESP said to leave out chassis parts because they aren't needed.

I asked for proof they were not needed and got none.

I proved they were needed.

akoutmos is butt-hurt about it.
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